An idea for a fighting Rogue

[sacred fool]

i have played as a rogue, but didnt like it that much. still i want to have a character that can open lock so i dont have to listen to Neeshka (i share Khelgars opinion) what i finally came up with is a Rogue with many great feats in Two Weapon Fighting (TWF) i didnt start yet so if you have any suggestions, ur welcome. taking a Strongheart halfling:
LVL Profession Feat taken
1 Rogue Dodge, Mobility
2 Fighter (lvl1 ranger feats)
3 Rogue Weapon Finesse
4 Fighter TWF fighting style
5 Rogue
6 Fighter Combat expertise TW Defense
7 Rogue
8 Fighter ITWF
9 Rogue ITW Defense
10 Fighter -----------
11 Rogue -----------
12 Fighter Spring attack, Whirl Wind Attack
13 Rogue catching up lost skill points
14 Rogue catching up lost skill points
15 Rogue GTWF
TOTAL OF FEATS: 11 + all basic of fighter and rogue
this is it, i decided to chose what i want later after i played for a bit. i was also thinking about a few lvls of assassin if i decide to go the evil way. if ill also try to get Feint since it might prove usefull. I also calculated that ill be able to reach 31 armor at lvl 10 with TWD, ITWD and Combat Expertise, that of course using the Arcane archer Chain Shirt.
anyone who had any experience, please comment

EDIT

the idea on the top has changed quite dramattically so.....

[carrotofdoom]

Originally Posted by sacred fool

i have played as a rogue, but didnt like it that much. still i want to have a character that can open lock so i dont have to listen to Neeshka (i share Khelgars opinion) what i finally came up with is a Rogue with many great feats in Two Weapon Fighting (TWF) i didnt start yet so if you have any suggestions, ur welcome. taking a Strongheart halfling:
LVL Profession Feat taken
1 Rogue Dodge, Mobility
2 Ranger (lvl1 ranger feats)
3 Rogue Weapon Finesse
4 Ranger TWF fighting style
5 Fighter Combat Expertise
6 Rogue TW Defense
7 Fighter ITWF
8 Ranger Toughness
9 Rogue ITW Defense
10 Fighter -----------
11 Rogue -----------
12 Fighter Spring attack, Whirl Wind Attack
13 Rogue catching up lost skill points
14 Rogue catching up lost skill points
15 Rogue GTWF
TOTAL OF FEATS: 11 + all basic of ranger, fighter and rogue
this is it, i decided to chose what i want later after i played for a bit. i was also thinking about a few lvls of assassin if i decide to go the evil way. if ill also try to get Feint since it might prove usefull. I also calculated that ill be able to reach 31 armor at lvl 10 with TWD, ITWD and Combat Expertise, that of course using the Arcane archer Chain Shirt.
anyone who had any experience, please comment

The build seems kind of scattered.

Two weapon fighting is rarely as good as Two hand weapons with power attack and/or cleave. One of the rare exceptions is when you're using sneak attacks. This build doesn't seem to maximize sneak attacks with only 8 levels of rogue you get only of sneak attack 4d6 (granted, you have another 5 levels left to pick from)

Whirlwind attack sounds good, but doesn't play well in actual practice.

Also, if you go halfling, you can't use alot of weapons due to size. Something to consider.

It seems like you want a close range melee fighter with TWF and rogue abilities.

Here's how I'd go:
Human Rogue3/Fighter2/Assassin9/Duelist6
Str: 12
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 12

1: rogue1: Dodge, Two WeaponFighting, sneak attack 1D6
2: fighter1: Mobility
3: fighter2: Weapon Finesse, improved two Weapon Fighting
4: rogue2: Evasion, +1 Dex
5: rogue3: Sneak attack +2d6 (2D6)
6: assassin1: Death attack +1D6 (3D6), Feat? (TWD)
7: assassin2: Poison resistance I, uncanny dodge, ghostly visage x1
8: duelist1: +1 dex, Canny defense
9: assassin3: Death attack +2d6 (4d6), Feat? (ITWD)
10: assassin4: Poison resistance 2
11: assassin5: Death attack +3d6 (5d6), improved uncanny dodge, darkness x1
12: assassin6: Poison resistance III, +1dex, greater TWF
13: assassin7: Death attack +4d6 (6d6)
14: assassin8: Poison resistance IV, hide in plain sight
15: assassin9: Death attack +5d6 (7d6), improved invisibility x1, Feat?
16: duelist2: +1 int, Improved reaction x1
17: duelist3: Enhanced mobility
18: duelist4: Improved reaction x3, grace, Feat?
19: duelist5: Precise strike +1d6 (8d6)
20: duelist6: +1 int, Improved reaction x4, flourish


All the thief abilities you seem to want, hide in plain sight, greater two weapon fighting, +8D6 on every sneak attack hit, flourish, good AC even unarmored, 16 Bab, and self haste gives 8hits/round.

Rough draft. Might want to end with last level in assassin for skill purposes, but you get the idea.

[noctambulist]

Don't you lose the Duelist feats like Precise Strike and Flourish if you use two weapon fighting? I don't think you gain much from adding Duelist classes to this build, maybe add more Rogue or Fighter levels with Weapon Spec Short Swords for some added AB.

[glung]

I thought you could only take one prestige class?

[carrotofdoom]

Originally Posted by glung

I thought you could only take one prestige class?

No, your only limit is four total classes. One could theoretically take 3 prestige classes

Originally Posted by noctambulist

Don't you lose the Duelist feats like Precise Strike and Flourish if you use two weapon fighting? I don't think you gain much from adding Duelist classes to this build, maybe add more Rogue or Fighter levels with Weapon Spec Short Swords for some added AB.

No, you don't lose Precise strike with TWF. More importantly, Duelist adds selfhaste amd Significant AC bonus. If you want to play rogue, to keep evasion/much of stealth , one needs to wear light armor. Without spells like mage armor, any AC boost is REALLY helpful.

[noctambulist]

Originally Posted by carrotofdoom

No, you don't lose Precise strike with TWF. More importantly, Duelist adds selfhaste amd Significant AC bonus. If you want to play rogue, to keep evasion/much of stealth , one needs to wear light armor. Without spells like mage armor, any AC boost is REALLY helpful.

Hmm, the Wiki and manual say otherwise, but it wouldn't be the first time it was wrong. I'll have to test this. I definitely know that Flourish only works with one light or one-handed piercing weapon.

In order to get the Canny Defense bonus you can't wear any armor at all, not even light armor. The Improved Reaction feat is nice, but is it worth 6 levels in Duelist? As a TWF fighting Rogue, I might go for more offensive damage output with Fighter levels and more feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Spec, etc.

[carrotofdoom]

Originally Posted by noctambulist

Hmm, the Wiki and manual say otherwise, but it wouldn't be the first time it was wrong. I'll have to test this. I definitely know that Flourish only works with one light or one-handed piercing weapon.

Hmm.. I think I see the problem. Are you thinking of going with two long swords? Yes, both flourish and precise strike require light or piercing weapons, but that in no way limits a rapier/dagger combination. Since damage is mostly based on sneak attack, the damage difference is negligible.

Originally Posted by noctambulist

In order to get the Canny Defense bonus you can't wear any armor at all, not even light armor. The Improved Reaction feat is nice, but is it worth 6 levels in Duelist? As a TWF fighting Rogue, I might go for more offensive damage output with Fighter levels and more feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Spec, etc.

Yep, no armor at all. But
1) with headband of intellect +8, you'd have a +8 to AC.,
2) You'd also be able to use full dex bonus,
3) all your thief abilities,
4) +1d6 for precise strike to EVERY hit,
5) enhance mobility (nice),
6) grace, and
7) selfhaste.
Pretty sure you can still use bracers and I KNOW you can still use amulet of natural armor.

Greater weapon spec. requires fighter level 12. Already have some feats unused that could easily go to basic weapon spec and weapon focus. 6 levels of fighter instead of duelist doesn't give a better Bab and only gives additional three feats. Feats are nice, but I don't think they're worth the tradeoff.

But, like many things in this game, it's largely personal preference.

[noctambulist]

OK, I tested out your build and it's quite fun mixing in the Assassin levels with Duelist, but there are a few tweaks.

1. Can't take ITWF at Lvl 3, it needs BAB +6, so I took TWD instead.
2. So at Lvl 6 I took Spring Attack
3. Can't take Duelist at Lvl 8 because of required BAB so I switched Duelist 1 with Assassin 3

4. At Lvl 9 I could finally take ITWF, took that instead of ITWD
5. At Lvl 12 I could take ITWD, instead of GTWF
6. At Lvl 15 I could take GTWF
7. That leaves one more feat available so I took Weapon Focus Short Swords (to duel wield short swords)

In testing, I got the flag "Precise Strike Disabled" when I equipped my two short swords. So it is confirmed, no Precise Strike while Duel Wielding, even two piercing weapons.

In fight tests, it did allow me to activate Flourish with two weapons, but I didn't parse the data to see if I was actually getting the 2D6 of piercing damage. So my confidence in Flourish not being usable with two weapons is certainly in question.

So I confirm that this build is pretty fun and I might have to give it a run in the OC if I make an Evil character. Though in order to get the most out of the Duelist class, I might go with 1h Rapier instead of duel-wielding.

[carrotofdoom]

Originally Posted by noctambulist

In testing, I got the flag "Precise Strike Disabled" when I equipped my two short swords. So it is confirmed, no Precise Strike while Duel Wielding, even two piercing weapons.

Bizarre. I tested it with rapier and dagger, and got no such message. If it's a patch issue or if for some other reason you can't get it to work, I'd go duelist4 and 2 more levels of fighter instead.

I'll try with short swords and see if I get the same message.

Originally Posted by noctambulist

So I confirm that this build is pretty fun and I might have to give it a run in the OC if I make an Evil character. Though in order to get the most out of the Duelist class, I might go with 1h Rapier instead of duel-wielding.

I would definitely use rapier, otherwise you lose your weapon finesse benefits. Pretty sure your Bab also goes from -2/-2 to -4/-4 with short swords. TWF is, however, necessary for the sneak attacks to do maximum damage.

[McPhearsom]

Finesse applies to any light or tiny sized weapon including shortswords and rapiers. Dual wielding any light or tiny weapons is only -2/-2 which I think counts for all finesse weapons. Shortswords are the same as rapiers but rapiers get a better chance of criticals (and cost more, not like that's much of an issue though).